Fairness and equality

Hecateh · Fairness and equality

Following a thread about helping children in another part of the forum thought it was a good topic for ethical debate.

Most (many/some/few) people try to treat their children 'fairly' but to what extent do they succeed especially in the view of their children.

What exactly is fair - bearing in mind life isn't fair and people are 'favoured' by life in various different ways?

Is it ever right to do something for one child (or grandchild) that you would not be able to do for another? And if so, under what circumstances?

Post your thoughts and experiences here from botht he receiving, giving and observational point of view.

Hecateh

To start the ball rolling, an observation

One of my friends has two children both girls. Mum brought them up on her own, the father leaving when the younger of the two was about 2 I think.

The elder child is considered to be like her mum and is definitely favourite. The younger one is labelled - just like your dad.

However, the favoured child had so many expectations placed on her whilst the younger one was excused any behaviour. I know elder children often have to 'break the ground' for those that follow in terms of parental experience so that does explain/excuse to some extent but in the end both kids lost out from this.

They are both adult now and reasonably OK, though they each believe the other was spoilt. The older had to move away to get away from the apron strings - and constant interference from her mother.
The younger is spoilt, expects everyone to put up with her demanding and thoughtless behaviour but also has very low self esteem and is still in conflict with herself as she is still looking for approval from her mum but still behaves in the way her mum 'expects' her to- which is badly.

I know this person believes she loves her children equally and has always been fair to them.

Davbro

We have 9 direct grandchildren, (from 5 children), ranging from age 3 to 22. The 22 year old was born to daughter at age 16 and so was basically brought up by my OH and myself for 18 years.
This included taking him on some holidays and subbing him for various events, in effect he was treated as a son and for his first few years he called me Dad.

We have never taken any of the others on holiday or anything like that but we always give same for Birthdays and Xmas.

All our children accepted this and never complain that we have done more for Daniel than any of the others.

Nannyp

I'm replying to this before really thinking it through, so may come back with more.

I always tried to treat Jo and Phil equally, and in my eyes I feel I achieved that. In some respects, this worked against Jo, the oldest, as sometimes they were both treated the same, when perhaps she should have been treated differently due to her age. For quite a while, they shared the same bed time, (20 months between them) until I realised this was unfair.

Interestingly, they do not see themselves as having been treated equally. Each one has stories where the other was more favoured.
I know I love them both equally and want to give them both equal amounts of love, support and sometimes, when I can money.

I'm not sure it is right to do something for one, you can not meet for the other......I know that this is very likely to cause more problems with regard to sibling rivalry. Having said that, I wouldn't not give some financial support to say Jo, if I felt I couldn't for Phil...and in the scheme of things, each of them have needed some sort of financial support, but at different times, so maybe it evens out.

I'm not sure I have answered the question, and as I said, I might comeback to it.

dragonfly

Got just one child... i dont qualify to answer :(

dingsy

Like Kathy, I'm sure I'll add to this, but in the meantime-

Before we even had children, Brian and I resolved that if we were to start a family, we would treat our children very differently to the way we had been treated. Although we were/are very loved, we were both very conscious of our younger siblings being the favoured party. Too numerous examples to mention, in early life, but as we became adults a trend was defintely emerging.

When Brian started working, his parents were happy to take half his earnings in "rent", wheras his siter("S"), contributed nothing from her salary, and indeed was supplemented with a bus pass and packed lunch everyday!

Throughout our married life, this trend has continued. Brian and I are very proud that we have made our own way in life, but it infuriates us to see S and co being assisted whenever the occasion arose. At no stage, have we ever been asked-"can we help you?". Admittedly we would have declined, but the offer would have been nice!

This attitude is apparent even in presents-several years ago, S received a classic burberry trench coat for Xmas, probably retailing for in excess of £500, whilst Brian received a pair of socks.

Sadly it also carried over to the grandchildren, which we find inexplicable, and hurts even more than any slight to us directly over the years. If nothing else-at least presents should be equal?

I accept that our situations are very different. S and family are unambitious, don't have much(why bother, when you have a never ending supply of bounty not far away?). From the outset, they chose the smallest cheapest house they could find:Brian and I pushed ourselves to our limit. Brain has done extremely well in life-he's very clever, extremely conscientious, and there was little doubt he would excel in whatever field he chose-and he has, the fruits of which enable us to have a very comfortable lifestyle. S's husband has been in the same (lowly paid job) for about 30 years. Each to their own-and all credit to them for what they have achieved under difficult situations.

But, we can't accept that our attitude/abilities/financial situation should mean that we're treated differently. Sadly, this continual attitude has caused huge problems. Brian has no contact whatsover with his sister and family-and I'm not sure they'll ever be reconciled. She feels that she's entitled to all the help she gets,we feel she's abusing her parent's (now mother, as father is dead)goodwill.

The whole gamut of emotion goes deeper than financial considerations, and the emotional hurt has been extensive. I think Brian will always resent this, and although we try not to get upset/angry it is difficult. We know things will never change, but we keep hoping...

So, as I said, I'm obsessive about keeping our two as equal as we can. They know and understand why-as they too have seen how their cousins have beeen prioritised throughout life. They are far more mature about it than we are, though, and cope much better!

Hecateh

Your story reminded me of this one Elaine
(Your husband was the lucky one as he has achieved his potential - maybe it was the 'spoiling' that prevented his siter from doing so.

The Old Man and the Butterfly
Once upon a time in a land far far away. There was a wonderful old man who loved everything. Animals, spiders, insects ...

One day while walking through the woods the nice old man found a cocoon.

Feeling lonely he decided to take the cocoon home to watch its beautiful transformation from a funny little cocoon to a beautiful butterfly.

He gently placed the cocoon on his kitchen table, and watched over it for days

Suddenly on the seventh day the cocoon started to move. It moved frantically! The old man felt sorry for the little butterfly inside the cocoon. He watched it struggle and struggle and struggle!

Finally the old man feeling so sorry for the cocooned butterfly rushed to its aide with a surgical scalpel and gently slit the cocoon so the butterfly could emerge.

Just one slice was all it took, and the butterfly broke free from its cocoon only to wilt over in a completely motionless state.

The old man did not know what to think. Had he accidentally killed the little butterfly? No, its still moving a little bit.! Maybe its sick!

Who the heck would know? He was dumbfounded, and quite perplexed! What should I do, he said. Well he felt so sorry for the little creature that he decided the best thing he could do for the butterfly was to place it gently back into its cocoon.

He did so, and placed a drop of honey on it to seal the cocoon, leaving the butterfly to nestle in its natural state.

Well the next day he noticed that the cocoon was moving again. Wow, he said! It moved and moved and struggled and struggled. Finally the butterfly broke free from its cocoon and stretched its wings out far and wide. Big time yawn! Its beautiful wings were filled with wonderful colors! It looked around and took off! It was flying! Its so beautiful! The old man was jumping with joy! Wow!

Go Baby, Go! And that wonderful butterfly did that just that, it flew and flew till it was almost out of the old mans sight. What a joy, he exclaimed!

But then he started to think. What did I do wrong by trying to help that beautiful little butterfly out at first?

The old man went into town. Found the library, and read every book he could on butterflies and cocoons.

Finally the answer appeared. The butterfly has to struggle and struggle while inside the cocoon. That's how it gets its strength. That's just what they are designed to overcome in order to be strong and beautiful.

Well needless to say the old man was shocked, saddened, and somewhat relieved.

Now he knows the reason why they do what they do. It was only his perception that made it appear that the butterfly was having a hard time. Well from then on the old man knew that loving something sometimes means to pray for it and cheer it on!

He realized that God was wonderful, and that sometimes appearances aren't what they seem to be. That we all are beautiful butterflies, even though we have our apparent struggles in life...

Hecateh

Sarah, of course you can have an opinion. It's a good thing to think about whilst there is only one (and even if it stays that way).

You can have thoughts about any situation - we are not only talking about personal experience here - it's good to discuss things and to disagree at times even so long as we respect others points of view. Experience shapes our view but discussions can help shape our experience and perspectives.

dingsy

What a lovely tale Hec-thanks for sharing!

We'll never know what S could have achieved-in many ways, I feel sorry for her. However, her attitude is and was appalling. She decided at 13 not to work at school, as a teacher (wrongly) told her off for asking a question about something she didn't understand. But, she's lazy too-it's hard at times to think these two kids had the same parents.Brian feels that realising his potential, as he has undoubtedly done, has come about through ******hard work.So often we have heard, "but you're the lucky ones..",etc. Sadly, too, we have always been discouraged from saying too much about our achievements("if S knew she'd be upset").

A complex, difficult situation all round, which has caused a huge rift in this family, which I suspect will never be healed, as both Brian and S dislike each other intensely now.

Nannyp

Your's and brian's experience sounds awful Elaine, and he has every reason to feel so unhappy with what has happened. It really is a very extreme example of the inequality often played out in families.

I have a question and will explain my reason later.

How was Brian born? Was he a normal, vaginal delivery?
And "S" normal vaginal?

dingsy

Both normal deliveries Kathy (this is intriguing!).Brian was slightly complicated though-the cord was around his neck, so he needed to be resuscitated.

Nannyp

Sorry to intrigue you then disappear.

I wondered, as I have understood that a Caesarean birth can mean a child becomes more passive and less likely to struggle to attain.
Obviously, in this case, this isn't part of the problem.
I wonder whether Brian's parents have issues around male's (ie bad experiences with brothers/fathers) and there is then negative transference on male children?

dingsy

Afraid not, Kathy!
His Dad(a fantastic, charming man) had 3 brothers. Parents divorced-his mother kept the 3 younger, sending the eldest (Brian's Dad) to live with his father.
His Mum had a sister, 3 brothers. She was very close to her Dad, helping him in the garden, etc., as her mother found it difficult coping with a large family.
Not sure how or why things developed as they did-but we've done our utmost not to make similar mistakes, so to that extent, something positive has come out of it.With hindsight, we should have made clear how much this attitude was hurting us- over the years there were(and still are) arguments around it, with the parents (his Dad is now dead), in denial.Or, at the very least, attempting to justify the inequalities. We've just had to accept it,and not allow the resentment to dominate our lives.
Having said that-one final example, of the hoops we have had to go through. Due to S's delicate sensiblities, when Brian became the youngest ever director in his company's history, we knew not to phone and share our very exciting news until late in the evening-in case you-know-who was there, and got upset. Crazy.I really think they over-compensated to S and her family-to put it very bluntly, Brian got all the brains, and S all the brawn.

Hecateh

Kath - looks like we were sort of thinking on the same lines but at a different juncture.

My post was saying that Brian's upbringing made him stronger - yours seeing a possible reason for the passivity of 'S'.

I'm one of 7 children - will post more another time BUT Mum says she treats us al the same - which (besides being totally untrue) is, to me, not the same as equal. With equal there has to be an element of 'to each what they need' - balanced over time certainly but we do all have different needs and also personalities and that will affect how we are treated. It is much harder to be fair than to just divide time or money up exactly the same,I feel BUT that does not mean anyone should be left out, neglected or forgotten. Very hard. As has been said - children will see inequalities as they will remeber the time they were disappointed more than the time they received.

dingsy

I agree that it's hard-but it's not impossible. If one child/person in any relationship is always the priority, then surely this is unfair?

I agree too, with the impact the upbringing may have had-but if this was equal, as the parents claim, then the vast differences in attitude become even more astounding.Perhaps this is actually where parents need to assess and handle the situation and their offspring differently. From an early age the personality traits were apparent. With hindsight, S possibly would have achieved more if she had been challenged, instead of wrapped in cotton wool. We'll never know! Perhaps Brian would be more sympathetic to other's difficulties, if his emotional upsets had been listened to, and acted upon. (He's a vey compassionate person in terms of helping in a practical fashion,and will do anything for anyone, but in terms of emotional support,he struggles and is very ill at ease, unless it's for myself and the kids)

I'm not too sure that I fully agree with your last point, though Hec. I think because we have been passed over as a matter of course, it's the times when we have been helped, that are prominent in our minds. Simply because there are so few of the latter, and so many of the former!

Very interesting debate.

patweb

I’ve always tried to treat my 2 daughters the same. At Christmas they both had the same number of presents and the same amount of money spent on them. I was really quite obsessed with this
When they both moved out the house, they were given the same amount of money to get started. Both are always given the same amount of love, and I’m sure if you asked them, they would both say none was favoured over the other. Now of course their needs are different.
As Hec said “to each what they need” which is what we do now. If one needs help, the other knows they will get it if the need arises. I’m not talking about money necessarily. The main thing here I think is knowing you are loved equally, nothing else matters. I am an only child so this situation didn’t arise in my case.
I hate unfairness in any shape or form, and feel really strongly about this. I think I take this from my Mother who also feels this way, and both her grandchildren were loved and treated the same.
My Mum was one of seven, four sons, three daughters, and the sons were favoured over the daughters. When my grandmother needed help in her declining years, it was always my mum who did the most for her. ( her sisters did nothing ) She was never thanked for it, but that was ok, it was her Mum and she did it because she loved her. But it was always the ones who did the least that got the most praise. I’m sure they were all loved equally, but it certainly wasn’t shown. I can understand your feelings about this Elaine, and I agree with you, no matter what the circumstances of your life, you should be treated the same. I have two lovely happy daughters, and I hope in some respects it’s because of how they were treated by their Dad and I.
I always remember thinking when I was pregnant with Jennifer, my second child. "How am I going to love this baby as much as I love Susan"
But you do, don't you. There's enough love to go round no matter how many children you have.

Nannyp

Sorry, this is a fascinating debate, and I am distracted by the telly, so will not say much here at the moment.

Elaine, what stood out to me from your reply to my neg Trans question, was that both Brian's Mum and Dad came from a high male background. I now wonder whether females (seemingly in short supply) are considered more special and worthy of special treatment?
I apologise, I seem to have more questions than answers...........actually, I don't apologise, I was trained to ask questions, to dig around etc.
Hope you don't mind.. :?

It is absolutely fascinating though, and of course the difficulty in debating it, is it is so close to home for us all, either for ourselves in our family or origin, or for our children.

I leads me to more questions, and I think I will start another thread

dingsy

It is fascinating-and I'm more than happy to answer questions. What an interesting theory too, and one which makes a lot of sense, knowing the people involved. I'm sure you have a point, and it's giving me a lot of comfort to think there potentially is a reason for events. Already(within minutes) I can almost feel the feelings of "where have we gone wrong/what are we doing to be treated like this"?etc, are ever so slightly, beginning to recede. Such an explanation had never crossed my mind.Thank you so much, Kathy, I'm sure you're on the right track-it's obvious when you know where to look-I just never knew where to look for myself!

Think Pat's point about there always being enough love to go around, is very important too. I recall having similair feelings when pregnant for a second time,feelings which lasted no time whatsoever. It was love at first sight-again!

Nannyp

I'm so pleased it makes you feel better (and Brian too I hope), I didn't realise it would though

It's also important to know that what the parents have done/are doing is in the most part unconcious, which is how they are able to seem in denial.
This doesn't make it okay....and I really believe it isn't okay, and feel very sorry that it still has the impact on your lives. It's amazing how hurt we can still be, and just shows that that Child part continues to smart over old hurts however old we are.

Hugs to you both

dingsy

As you said, it may not excuse actions, but it does in part give a reason behind why life may have developed as it did, and that in itself is a comfort.

We have been genuinely bewildered and hurt over the years, feeling that the reason for this somehow lay in a fault in our nature/personalities, which made us less important. Feeling that this may not be the case, is remarkably liberating.

I'll share this theory with Brian-at some stage, but probaly not immediately. He's very defensive when these issues are raised.

Being the stubborn little thing that I am,I have persevered in maintaining, and trying to improve the relationship with his parents, when if truth be told, he would have given up many years ago.I'm glad that I've done so, because despite everything, I love them dearly.I was heartbroken when his Dad died, as he was like a father to me. Which in view of your theory, now also makes perfect sense!

Nannyp

Oh dear, yes it does make perfect sense :)

I can understand Brian wanting to be apart from them though........sometimes, that seperating means we no longer allow them to hurt us.

I know for myself, I am seperate from my siblings, it is a far happier and hurt free environment for me. I have also, at times, estranged myself from my parents for the same reasons.

I hope that Brian feels some comfort from what we're discussing, when he's ready of course :)