What do you think?

Nannyp · What do you think?

I wasn't sure where to put this.....and have decided on here, but of course move it to somewhere more appropriate if need be.

I'll come clean....I have been reading emails from friends, post on various fora and some on here. Many of them talking about getting sunburnt....addtitionally, someone falling off a ladder (for a 2nd time in 2 months) and it has reminded me about some of my learning when in therapy and when training as a psychotherapist.

I learnt that there are many forms of self harm, along a continuem.
Imagine at the very far end is Suicide and in the middle there is cutting, burning, anorexia, bulimea etc, further down there is smoking, drinking, over eating and not far from here is allowing oneself to be injured by not taking care of oneself...ie, sunburn, falling off ladders, malnutrition, dehydration, over working etc etc.

I also learnt that some of these things we do unconciousely(sp) and that we can be completely unaware that we are doing things to harm ourselves.
When I learnt this, I was very shocked to have to rethink of myself as a self harmer..I was a smoker, and am also overweight (obese). After a few months of getting my head around this concept, I made a concious decision to stop smoking. I also over time learnt to take responsibility for my thinking...so took more care in the sun, on the road, up ladders etc.
So now, I know that I am overweight and that this is bad for me and yet, I chose to eat healthily, not bingeing (I never have done that) and being aware of foods that are good for me and the importance of exercise. If I lose weight that'd be good, but I gave up yo yo dieting several years ago.

So, my questions ....why do you think we chose not to see how we are not taking care?
Why do we chose to discount the toll on our helath of smoking?
Why do we chose not to think ahead and take more care of ourselves?

I have to admit, I do know some of the answers why....but I am interested in seeing what you all think of this concept.

Hecateh

Will prepare an essay to give my views but to add to the debate
Would you also see on the same continuum such things as allowing others to treat us badly e.g. disrespect, emotional and or physical abuse.

And are most of the 'reasons' around lack of self esteem because we don't think we are 'important' enough to take care of.

Actually - not sure I need to write an essay - although I may well do yet

but the main thing for me is

Yes - all this is a version of self harming.

If you know how to take good physical care of yourself and you don't do so - with whatever excuse, it is a form of self abuse and is directly or indirectly linked to self esttem (though self esteem is not the whole or only answer)

I think a fair amount of illness is attention seeking (totally unconsciously) in that "IF I am not important enough to be cared about like I want /need then if I am ill then I actually need to be looked after and will get the attention I want /need".

Probably more thoughts later!

patweb

I think because some of these thngs you mention eg. smoking, getting burnt in the sun, the damage you are doing to yourself is away in the future, and at the time don’t realise the harm you are doing, and of course there’s the attitude,” it won't happen to me”.
If the damage was immediate it would be different. If someone said to you “ if you have a cigarette today, tomorrow you will wake up with lung cancer” would you still have that cigarette? I doubt it.
I am now paying for my love of the sun.
About two weeks ago I had a solar keratosis removed from my nose. This was caused by sun damage. The dermatologist told me I could expect to get more in years to come. This damage was done many years ago, probably in the seventies, when all sorts of oil was smeared all over your body to obtain the maximum suntan. Now I will not go outside unless I have factor 50 on my face, and I sit in the shade. Probably a waste of time as the damage has already been done, but it has obviously given me a scare. This is so difficult for me because I am such a sun worshipper. It’s just the same as smoking, an addiction.
Now when I see people lying frying in the sun, I just think about the harm they are doing to themselves.

dragonfly

I think, on the whole. Everyone just seems to think "it wont happen to me" to be honest. In the 70s a suntan was healthy and no one said a dickie bird about smoking did they.
As for over eating. I think nice food is comforting and healthy food is dull. So most people have an "always will feel whats best now" attitude. Thats

Smoking, sunbathing etc. I think that over protective parents make there children generation feel "too safe" so they think nothing will happen to 'them' then have a oh why me attitude when the doctor says "told you so...."

Smoking, on the whole is started as a teenager, when they are just doing it cos they are not supposed too.
I think that self destruction does happen, but it is not that widespread or in depth as to say its the whole society who do harmful things.

i hope this made sense lol!!

Guest

I think it sometimes can be due to a sense of worthlessness. For example, I have had an eating disorder since my teens (I am 34 now). I now have it under control - and I don't think it's a coincidence that I am much happier in my life now - but I think it's something that will always be there. Sometimes when I used to binge, I would feel so angry and frustrated with myself while I was doing it. I would stuff myself with food that I didn't even like sometimes, or eat more and more even though I was already feeling uncomfortable from eating too much. I don't think I thought too much of myself back then, because I knew I would hate myself the next day (my binges were usually late at night). Maybe I just didn't feel worth enough to stop my destructive behaviour.

As for smoking, sunbathing, excessive drinking - I think that a lot of it is because, as Pat said, people think, "It won't happen to me." Drinking and sunbathing certainly can be pastimes that in moderation are very enjoyable and not bad for you (some people would say that smoking is also very enjoyable), and people don't want to give it up. It's like the old joke - give up smoking, drinking and sex. You won't live longer, but it will feel like it!

dragonfly

Ruth... i love that quote...!!!
Smoking drinking and sex one.

Davbro

Ah! thats why I appear to be living longer. :zn2

Nannyp

Why do you think we chose not to see how we are not taking care?

This was my first question and I was genuinely interested in discovering why it is sometimes we chose not to see the obvious, or we see, but chose to continue to harm ourselves. I guess I have simplified my example to explain the concept. Of course, I knew I smoked, but understanding why, despite several attempts to give up, I returned to it was really helpful and very revealing. It left me with no choice but to give up. I think for me it was about how I value myself. Am I worth taking care of?

Why do we choose to discount the toll on our health from smoking?

It is of course far easier to not consider the effects of smoking in order to keep it okay. It is easier to think, “It won’t happen to me.” And carry on discounting that we don’t value ourselves enough to make a change. I am eternally grateful for this piece of learning….I don’t cough in the mornings or throughout the day, I don’t have to take breaks to smoke when working, I don’t have to apologise to people because I am allowing smoke to blow into their faces, I don’t have to find a smoking pub or eating place, my clothes and hair and house no longer smell of stale cigarettes etc etc.

Why do we chose not to think ahead and take more care of ourselves?

I think this is about how we value ourselves and how we believe or not that we are worth caring for. Many of you have picked that up and I find it sad that people don’t take care of themselves as they don’t feel worthy of such care. This is often as a result of lack of parental care in childhood.

There is another continuum Harm Others which at it’s worse is Murder and further down is punching, slapping, physically, sexually abusing, verbally abusing, bullying etc etc and not necessarily in that order.

The other continuum in the model we’re discussing is Go Crazy which at its worse is becoming very mentally ill, and further down the line is don’t think, be forgetful, get others to think for you,etc.

The concept I am talking about here is known in TA as Escape Hatch Closure, and is used by some psychotherapists to support them to work safely with their clients. Working with clients who have not closed their Escape Hatches can be dangerous and this is one of the things to consider when treatment planning.

As I said in my original post, I was just reminded of this as I was receiving information from various quarters that I found disturbing. I know my friend won’t mind me say, falling off a ladder twice in 2 months, and injuring herself quite badly, and not seeking medical advice is surely a sign she is not taking care of herself and that there are some issues regarding self harm. This morning I have received this from her,

Guest

dingsy

This is a fascinating discussion.

Kathy, your friend's story reminded me of a situation one of my friends was in some years ago. She was an alcoholic (I say "was", as she died some time ago). A very similair pattern of accidents, phonecalls to me for help, which I willingly gave. My son and her daughter were great friends. We both had the same g.p., and as the situation deteriorated, I tried to chat to our g.p. who was reluctant to support me-I too was his patient, getting very worried that we were sitting on a potential timebomb, but he was unable/unwilling to discuss the impact the worry was having on my health! Eventually, she went into rehab-which achieved little or nothing, and she effectively drunk herself to death within a few years.While this was going on,our friends were divorcing, and fortunately (and somewhat surprisingly, as this was happening about 10 years or so ago, the father was awarded custody of their daughter, which was an enormous relief)

To this day, the waste of a life has struck me as a terrible tragedy. There was a sense of resignation-she knew it would kill her, but couldn't stop. So, going back to your original point Kathy-in her sober moments, she acknowledged that she was killing herself(she told me that our gp said she would be dead in her early 40s-and she was)

No amount of support/help seemed to be enough to get her out of the cycle-and to be honest, after a while my concern was for the child-my friend was effectively a lost cause, and it broke my heart to see a little child stuck in this environment(much though she loved her Mum)Numerous promises were made and broken to so many people, her death from this became a "when" rather than an "if". Why she chose to ignore and not act upon what she knew she was doing to herself, is something I don't understand.

A further point I'd like to add. I wonder if this type of mental illness is genetic in origin, and no matter how much the rational part of the brain says "stop", the addictive part embedded in the genes prohibits change? My friend knew, acknowledged and accepted her fate-she certainly wasn't saying "it won't happen to me".

A final note-the child in question thrived both physically and emotionally with her Dad, and has turned into a beautiful young girl-of whom her Mum would have been proud.

Nannyp

What an awful, yet sadly, not unusual story.
The problem with this type of self harm is that there is a very strong Do Not Exist injunction. Fighting against this powerful, unconcious injunction without incredible levels of very good therapy and a willingness to work with the therapy makes for a very porr diagnosis.
Alcoholics are one of the hardest types of patients to work with and in all honesty I shouldn't work with them as Mum was an alcoholic. Not in anyway as bad as your friend, but enough to make it too close for comfort.
Many of the people who end up committing suicide have this Do Not Exist injunction and I have been taught, and therefore believe that it is nurture not nature. I'd have to go back to my books to read about it again, to be able to discuss it here but it is to do with our very early existence and how we are parented.

TA Today, by Ian Stewart and Vann Joines is a good, basis TA book with many of these ideas in them. Well worth reading. It's written in such a way that each chapter sits alone, so doesn't have to be read all in one go. Just as well it has a simple format, because it was how I began my journey into Transactional Analysis... and believe me, I need it written simply.

Please their daughter is thriving in her father's care, and sadly, I suspect she may need help when she is older and questioning her own position in the world.

dingsy

Re your last point Kathy:that is my great fear for the future. She was old enough to understand what was happening, and became very self sufficient from a ridiculously early age.
In no small part the decision which gave her Dad custody came about through her input-she loved her Mum, but didn't want to live with her. (We're talking of a child of about 8, by the way)
I suspect you're right in the nurture being the dominant determining factor. This seems to be borne out with another friend-also an alcoholic, who has several times taken an overdose. Her childhood is certainly a major issue to this day, for her.

Nannyp

Children of alcoholics learn very quickly how to take care of themselves emotionally and physically, they have little choice as quite often the parent is more often emotionally and sometimes physically unavailable.
These children always do well, and seem to thrive....and sadly they are using Child gathered data to make the Adult decisions, even when they are adults.
Children of alcoholics can also become mentally ill as life is so confusing....ie: Mum is drunk, there is something very wrong and I have to pretend she's okay, because she is pretending/saying she's okay.
What I see is balck, and she says it's Blue...it must be Blue then, becasue she's my Mum and Mum's know more than children.

Oops, off again on a passionate cause

Hope your friend's daughter gets all the help she won't know she needs when she needs it, bless her